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joe_somebody
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 4
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 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:13 am Post subject: UMD Format |
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Is there anyone out there willing to sacrifice one of their UMD discs for an experiment?
Do you suppose it might be possible to take the shell off a UMD diskette. Cut the center out of the thing, and try placing it in a DVD-ROM drive?
For testing, development houses currently use DVD-R media. It's a long shot, but the density of the UMD seems to be inline with Dual Layer DVD media. There could be a small chance that the protection is only the physical cartridge, and hub. |
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ooPo
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2032
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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I already did my destructive part for pspdev, now its your turn.
I anxiously await your results! |
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Orion_
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| I think the center of the umd is too small for a dvd drive, even if you can fit the motor inside, you will miss data. |
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joe_somebody
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: UMD in DVD Rom |
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Your right, data overlaps with what would be the un-usable portion of the DVD center.
I guess we'll just have to wait until we get a firmware hack that will map the UMD to a drive letter (like the memory stick). |
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ooPo
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2032
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| While interesting from a technical viewpoint, one has to wonder what would be gained by having access to data on the UMD drive outside of copying it for piracy purposes. Sure, it could provide code examples to disassemble but from the sounds of it you're not really interested in that... or maybe you'd be willing to do more than just wait for someone to hand a magical hacked firmware to you with all the features you desire. |
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joe_somebody
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: firmware |
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OoPo: I think you're reading into my post.
I overlayed a DVD-R on top of the UMD, and then agreed with you.
Certainly sony will not release any firmware that lets you read files from a UMD onto your PC. It follows logically that it will require something from the home-dev community. If you run non-sony firmware, by definition it's hacked.
You yourself mentioned all the postiive things that could be gained by having the ability to read files from a UMD. Unfortunatley I'm going to have to disagree about it being benefitial for piracy. It's highly unlikely that one could just copy the files from a UMD onto a memory card, and be good to go.
It would seem that you think you know everything about me... Seems kind of purpostrous...
I sincerely apologize for trying to throw some idea's out there, on your precious forum. You know everything already, so what could anyone else contribute? |
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mc
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 212
Location: Linköping
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: |
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I agree that copying a UMD to a memory stick is not likely to work in most cases (too small capacity), but should someone want to run "backups", as pirated software seems to be known novadays, putting it on a file server and using WLAN should definitely be feasable. Not advocating it, just pointing out the possibility. Of course, this would also require a "firmware hack", or at least a program to run from memory stick, that would implement UMD emulation over WLAN.
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ooPo
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2032
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Well, joe... when you only have one or two posts to go on, one can't be blamed for not having a complete picture of an individual.
I was simply reminded of the constant barcode threads on gcdev where every yahoo would throw out ideas that ranged from silly to innovative, but nobody was willing to try it themselves. You yourself seemed resigned to simply wait for a hacked firmware to waft by... Things like these don't simply make themselves, you know?
Regardless, if I have misjudged you then I apologize. My mind is quite open to changing opinions about someone as I learn more and I'm sure that if you are a good person it'll eventually show. The jabs and barbs are simply designed to scare away the fanboys and make sure that only people truly interested in the topic at hand actually stick around long enough to reap the rewards.
So, stick around... |
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senas8
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 56
Location: Romania/USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| WOW well said Admin: Hi everyone im new to the forum...I dont know much, but interested to learn. |
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Cogboy
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| does anyoneone know if the umd even uses the same wavelength laser? probably best to see if it is compatable before you go ripping apart your disks. |
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LaNcom
Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe this helps, found on a German forum - UMD specs:
| Quote: | Dimensions: Approx. 65 mm (W) x 64 mm (D) x 4.2 mm (H)
Weight: Approx. 10g
Disc Diameter: 60 mm
Maximum Capacity: 1.8GB (Single-sided, dual layer)
Laser wavelength: 660nm (Red laser)
Encryption: AES 128bit
Profile: PSP Game (full function)
UMD Audio (codec ATRAC3plusTM, PCM, (MPEG4 AVC))
UMD Video (codec MPEG4 AVC, ATRAC3plusTM, Caption PNG)
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It seems like the UMD uses a wavelength very similar to DVDs (650 nm IIRC)... |
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Gizmo
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:00 am Post subject: |
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The english manual lists the following on page 114:
UMD Laser:
Wave length: 655 - 665 nm
Power: max 0.28 mW
Type: Semiconductor. continuos |
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senas8
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 56
Location: Romania/USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mc wrote: | | I agree that copying a UMD to a memory stick is not likely to work in most cases (too small capacity), but should someone want to run "backups", as pirated software seems to be known novadays, putting it on a file server and using WLAN should definitely be feasable. Not advocating it, just pointing out the possibility. Of course, this would also require a "firmware hack", or at least a program to run from memory stick, that would implement UMD emulation over WLAN. |
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mrbrown
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 1536
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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You folks are starting to test my limits with this warez crap. Don't post about what you had to do or not do to copy a game and if in doubt read the forum rules.
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"He was warned..." |
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mc
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 212
Location: Linköping
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:05 am Post subject: |
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Is it forbidden to take an academic interest in what is possible or not with the PSP hardware?
As far as I can see, there are two rules for the forum: You can't ask for information about illegal stuff, and you're not allowed to flame. Did you find any additinal rules?
(I don't know what senas8 wrote before it was deleted, maybe he did violate rule 1...)
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ooPo
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2032
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| mc wrote: | | Is it forbidden to take an academic interest in what is possible or not with the PSP hardware? |
Actually it isn't forbidden, and you know it isn't. Stop trying to stir emotions up before you get to the real point of your message...
| mc wrote: | | (I don't know what senas8 wrote before it was deleted, maybe he did violate rule 1...) |
We're all thinking this, and I can only assume he did... up until now most of the conversation has been harmless laser wavelength talk for the most part. |
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mrbrown
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 1536
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:21 am Post subject: |
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senas8 was talking about what he had to do to copy some of his Xbox games, and how those techniques could apply to copying psp games. That's clearly a violation of forum rules. I don't care about any of the other stuff, as long as it's not about copying games on psp, or xbox, or wonderswan, or whatever.
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"He was warned..." |
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mc
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 212
Location: Linköping
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| ooPo wrote: | | Actually it isn't forbidden, and you know it isn't. Stop trying to stir emotions up before you get to the real point of your message... |
Well, I didn't know for sure before, so that's why I asked. I'm not trying to stir up anything, just trying to figure out if there are any rules I'm unaware of and should be adhering to.
| ooPo wrote: | | ... up until now most of the conversation has been harmless laser wavelength talk for the most part. |
Yeah, and the utility/danger of UMD access as a commodity. There's definitely two sides of the coin here, and the only way to avoid any ill effects is to know what they are...
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mc
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 212
Location: Linköping
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:37 am Post subject: |
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mrbrown: Technically, the rules say that you can't _ask_ about how to copy Xbox games, but they don't seem to say anything about _telling_ how to do it. :-) But yeah, if the description was detailed enough, it could probably be said to go against the spirit of rule 1.
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senas8
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 56
Location: Romania/USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| Im sorry everyone..I will be more selective...in posts. I dont think my post should have been deleted..just edited..perhaps PM me....anyways it wasn't that detailed, because you would need more information to be able do what I have suggested.... and that I have not posted. As we learn more info about the psp and it's formats....its going to be a fineline between what to post and what not....However I respect the rules here. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mc wrote: | | mrbrown: Technically, the rules say that you can't _ask_ about how to copy Xbox games, but they don't seem to say anything about _telling_ how to do it. :-) |
Mc, I believe mrbrown's second post in the rules thread of the announcements forum addresses talking about "how to do it".
And you are correct, talking about how to warez violates the spirit of the rules.
Let me say this another way,
Other sites on the net implicitly accept warezing as an activity of its members, but simply ask people to not talk about it in a way that can get the site into trouble. People talk in codewords such as "backups" and this kind of forum culture is tolerated.
This site, ps2dev, at least from my experience as one member, explicitly rejects warezing as an activity of its members. Thus, any topic that even talks about how it can be done invites censure from its members. Threads where people casually talk about such activities, or how to do them, if unchallenged, implicitly increase the acceptance of such activities by members of this site, thus the reason why they are strongly discouraged.
This is not to say that no one here warez, since membership is open and uncontrolled. But there is a culture of intolerance of warezing that is cultivated and empowered to take action whenever topics look to be getting out of control. People are not afraid to challenge such activities on the parts of others.
Personally, I would say this culture of intolerance of warezing has had a positive impact overall, not just for encouraging better personal habits, but keeping a strong focus on the core thrust of this site: pure ps2 homebrew development. |
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mc
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 212
Location: Linköping
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| gorim wrote: | This site, ps2dev, at least from my experience as one member, explicitly rejects warezing as an activity of its members. Thus, any topic that even talks about how it can be done invites censure from its members. Threads where people casually talk about such activities, or how to do them, if unchallenged, implicitly increase the acceptance of such activities by members of this site, thus the reason why they are strongly discouraged.
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However, in this case there was no acceptance of such activities (at least from my part), but rather the opposite. What was in fact challenged was the notion that UMD reading is "safe" as there is no way to play pirated software anyway.
| gorim wrote: | | But there is a culture of intolerance of warezing that is cultivated and empowered to take action whenever topics look to be getting out of control. People are not afraid to challenge such activities on the parts of others. |
Which makes me happy, since I cultivate such intolerance myself. :-) I am also intolerant to bullshit though, so if people start to cry warezing where there is none, I'm not going to sit silent. :-)
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loser
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:35 am Post subject: umd drives |
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| i cant remember exactly where i read it now, but i saw it mentioned on a couple of different sites that sony is going to be licensing the UMD format out to other vendors, so a UMD drive for pc may come about in time anyway. i know they talked about the possibilities of a hardware media player device that supports umd. |
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senas8
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 56
Location: Romania/USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: umd drives |
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| loser wrote: | | i cant remember exactly where i read it now, but i saw it mentioned on a couple of different sites that sony is going to be licensing the UMD format out to other vendors, so a UMD drive for pc may come about in time anyway. i know they talked about the possibilities of a hardware media player device that supports umd. |
Yes hardware media players, but not writers. If sony wants the UMD format to be huge and wide spread, we should be able to purchase a blank UMD and put what ever data we wish on there...Music/Phothos/Movies ..etc.. this would be a popular format, because we all know how much a 1GIG pro duo cost? UMD will be cheap...im sure we get the picture. Look at CD/DVD's people use these formats they are cheap....or maybe just maybe the psp has a umd writer built in...and maybe you could write/transfer to a blank UMD, when released, but only thru the psp...which now im thinking would be a way to keep pirated material out.... ok im dreaming...the psp would cost abut $200 more. |
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Arakon
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| actually, UMD media would be quite expensive, and so would be writers.. for the simple reason that it's not widespread and not many people will actually have a use for it with HDDVD and BLURay coming. |
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senas8
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 56
Location: Romania/USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Arakon wrote: | | actually, UMD media would be quite expensive, and so would be writers.. for the simple reason that it's not widespread and not many people will actually have a use for it with HDDVD and BLURay coming. |
Yes I agree no use for it with hddvd and Bluray, but what im talking about is PSP format...your not going to use HdDvd and Bluray on psp. I dont think that umd's would be more expensive then the 1gig...what do they go for now...$150 at best price and up $150 gets you 3 UMD games for the psp. I paid $300 for my 1GIG at Fry's....wow ...spent more then what a psp is .LOL |
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Victor
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| with out talk UMD, any one can read data by files in MD DATA ?( not 10 years old MD data 120, i'm talking new ver one) |
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senas8
Joined: 03 Feb 2005
Posts: 56
Location: Romania/USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Victor wrote: | | with out talk UMD, any one can read data by files in MD DATA ?( not 10 years old MD data 120, i'm talking new ver one) |
Victor: Are you asking about the miniDisc? The sony walkman? If anyone can read data from a minidisc? |
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Victor
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| senas8 wrote: | | Victor wrote: | | with out talk UMD, any one can read data by files in MD DATA ?( not 10 years old MD data 120, i'm talking new ver one) |
Victor: Are you asking about the miniDisc? The sony walkman? If anyone can read data from a minidisc? |
MD DATA = MiniDisc DATA
sony make alot standed. |
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Klendathu
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Measure the total surface of a dvd (only the part where you can write, not the border or the hole in the middle.) you'll find that a DVD stores roughly 42MB per square centimeter. Take the same measurement on a UMD (you know the surface, you know the ammount of data it packs, so hence you calculate the data density) and surprise surprise the UMD stores 79,4 MB per square centimeter.
from this it is safe to assume that you will not be able to rig some hardware in order to read or write UMD. |
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