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ooPo
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004
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Location: Canada
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 Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: Slim PS3 = No More Otheros |
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It seems that otheros support has been dropped from the new slim PS3.
I wonder why... |
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theBrave
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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I would say that the HD is no longer user serviceable.
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| Kernel Saunders wrote: | | I was hoping someone here might feel like working together to create such a game...Someone who knows about how to write-out all the ones and zeros to make a EBOOT.PBP |
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jimparis
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 1179
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| That sucks. I was going to get one... now it's a lot less tempting. |
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ooPo
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
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Location: Canada
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J.F.
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2906
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Slim PS3 = No More Otheros |
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| ooPo wrote: | It seems that otheros support has been dropped from the new slim PS3.
I wonder why... |
Do you have a link for that? I haven't seen one word anywhere about OTHEROS being dropped. All articles claim it has ALL the functionality of the regular PS3. |
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uipe
Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 3
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speedxl
Joined: 07 Aug 2008
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jbit
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Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 293
Location: København, Danmark
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: |
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http://uk.playstation.com/games-media/news/articles/detail/item229653/Entertainment-on-PS3-has-a-new-look// English link
I can't see them nuking existing features in a firmware update without saying it in the firmware update notes... My best guess is that OtherOS is dropped due to hardware changes in the slim. And just like a PS3 with PS2 hardware can still be backwards compatible, a PS3 with "OtherOS supporting hardware" will still load OtherOS... We should assume this until proven otherwise.
(This thread is fine as long as it doesn't descend into wild speculation) |
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androvsky
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| jbit wrote: | http://uk.playstation.com/games-media/news/articles/detail/item229653/Entertainment-on-PS3-has-a-new-look// English link
I can't see them nuking existing features in a firmware update without saying it in the firmware update notes... My best guess is that OtherOS is dropped due to hardware changes in the slim. And just like a PS3 with PS2 hardware can still be backwards compatible, a PS3 with "OtherOS supporting hardware" will still load OtherOS... We should assume this until proven otherwise.
(This thread is fine as long as it doesn't descend into wild speculation) |
The language of the press release uses "new PS3 system" when it is only talking about the slim, which is the phrasing used in the paragraph about removal of OtherOS. Existing systems should be okay. |
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rapso
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: |
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well, i would be suprised if sony would ever put a product on the market without screwing something up.
but on the other side, they seem to pay for it. so will be with the slim.
makes me a little bit sad for such a big company, having some minor decision makers that kill the whole thing.
but now I need to buy another two ps3, lets hope they'll be cheap now :) |
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unsolo
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 155
Location: OSLO Norway
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: |
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This is sad news indeed
I was hoping we could get OurOS(A PS3 specific linux based os) http://code.google.com/p/ouros/ on its feet by the end of this year
I fear that with OtherOS beeing discontinued the it is over for any hope of a usable OtherOS platform.
I have closed down the projects spu-medialib spexms speutils and spumedia as a reaction to this news hopefully people do not hold it against me.
I hope this gets changed for the ps3 slim but i fear it is nothing to hope for. I will stay in contact with a few people i like in the ps3 development scene, but i will not do any form of ps3 development untill the situation changes.
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J.F.
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2906
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Still looking for a SONY link about removing OTHEROS. Only a couple stories from non-Sony sites claim that the "Install OTHER OS" feature is removed. There's also another way that could be interpreted as well - that you no longer need to install a boot loader, but rather it could be launched from the XMB like any other app. That would certainly be a much better option that having to install a loader and then go into the system settings to change the boot to the loader and reset the system. |
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ouasse
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| This is definitely sad news. It feel this like a treason. So much time spent on exciting development, finally condemned to going underground. |
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rapso
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
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J.F.
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2906
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Sorry - looked like a game magazine site. :)
| Quote: | | The new PS3 system will focus on delivering games and other entertainment content |
Yeah, because linux has been such a tremendous focus to this point. ;) |
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ouasse
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| I've just added a post to my blog, with my opinion about the situation. Rough style, but whatever. If you think some arguments are missing, please tell. |
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ooPo
Site Admin
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2032
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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So, does anyone feel like rehashing the old bust-the-hypervisor-to-load-homebrew-code discussion? I'm not saying rush out and do it, I'm just observing that many arguments against it have just been made obsolete. :)
I mean, since day one Sony has been closing all the interesting holes. Its rather obvious the only reason we got otheros in the first place was to give IBM some cheap cell workstations to legitimize their then-new platform.
Any thoughts? |
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lotharx
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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The CECH2000 will have a new low power CBE and a reformed PCB. It's identical in bus to the recent 80gb; the WLAN is just compressed. It's also the only one in production, but Sony wants everyone to buy the older models off the shelf so they don't lose millions.
If otheros gets cut I know some 'hackers' who will be eating their own words ^^ |
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J.F.
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 2906
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The majority of arguments I heard for not exploiting the PS3 was that we had OTHEROS. If Sony takes that away, they are only encouraging hacker to finally start digging into PS3 exploits. It's rather counter-productive if you ask me. My brother had a point though - he thinks the only reason Sony is doing it is because Microsoft gave them an ultimatum: get rid of linux or you'll never see an MS exclusive title ever come to the PS3. MS has the money to back that up, too. It's just the sort of thing MS would pull. |
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lotharx
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| J.F. wrote: | | The majority of arguments I heard for not exploiting the PS3 was that we had OTHEROS. If Sony takes that away, they are only encouraging hacker to finally start digging into PS3 exploits. It's rather counter-productive if you ask me. My brother had a point though - he thinks the only reason Sony is doing it is because Microsoft gave them an ultimatum: get rid of linux or you'll never see an MS exclusive title ever come to the PS3. MS has the money to back that up, too. It's just the sort of thing MS would pull. |
I don't think that's it at all. A game studio makes higher profit margins publishing on PS3 right now. Spend 10k for a test unit, and then publish a money maker that won't lose a huge fraction of profit as a result of piracy and be able to pay everyone in the studio and start another title while it rolls in.
MS has nothing to offer to a game studio and MS studios don't publish anything a PS3 favored studio hasn't 1uped. MS makes some money because people can play free games on their console, but the studios are all losing epic investments.
Pertaining to the PS3 security->Linux statement. The PS3 has it's loader in the CBE and has no syscall or flag vector. Read my other post on it. "Anonymous" probably tried and discovered what is now known. The Linux statement will be used in different context when the 2000 is released. This cop out will be that the other versions have Linux so why bother; the guys who said that can't reverse anyway and probably think compiling a new kernel tree is a big feet. |
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jimparis
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 1179
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ooPo wrote: | | So, does anyone feel like rehashing the old bust-the-hypervisor-to-load-homebrew-code discussion? I'm not saying rush out and do it, I'm just observing that many arguments against it have just been made obsolete. :) |
I agree, I think this is the most likely side effect of their decision. In practice, the number of people who actually ran Linux on their PS3 was vanishingly small. But a strong reason for Sony to keep OtherOS was because it did a great job of keeping the serious GameOS hackers away. I suspect they recognize that, so I wonder what the compelling reason was for still removing OtherOS. And provoking curiosity doesn't help Sony in this situation :) |
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rapso
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| J.F. wrote: | Sorry - looked like a game magazine site. :)
| Quote: | | The new PS3 system will focus on delivering games and other entertainment content |
Yeah, because linux has been such a tremendous focus to this point. ;) |
maybe not support as in ppl that do something bout it.
but support by selling PS3s below production costs that might never ever run a game.
Maybe that's still somehow the case.
i bought my last PS3 for 299 months ago, this pricedrop isn't really one as they were in general by bout 330, with some offers down to 280euro. :/ |
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lotharx
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| jimparis wrote: | | ooPo wrote: | | So, does anyone feel like rehashing the old bust-the-hypervisor-to-load-homebrew-code discussion? I'm not saying rush out and do it, I'm just observing that many arguments against it have just been made obsolete. :) |
I agree, I think this is the most likely side effect of their decision. In practice, the number of people who actually ran Linux on their PS3 was vanishingly small. But a strong reason for Sony to keep OtherOS was because it did a great job of keeping the serious GameOS hackers away. I suspect they recognize that, so I wonder what the compelling reason was for still removing OtherOS. And provoking curiosity doesn't help Sony in this situation :) |
EDIT: some people are cry babies
PC Version: I'm also interested in what the guy from security focus will do ^^ |
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modrobert
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 22
Location: Bangkok
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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When I finally accepted there really is 240MiB RAM available to "Other OS" using PS3 Linux (took some convincing, thanks btw), then a smiling Kaz along with the other fools at $ony decide to remove it. I sure hope they will continue to support "Other OS" on the "old hardware" at least, and not just run us over with the dreaded firmware 3.0 release.
lotharx,
A cry baby is way better than a corporate tool in my book. How these self-righteous people can claim sales which never occurred are equal to losses due to piracy is beyond me. That's a corporate cry baby talking if you ask me. |
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ps2devman
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I told you. I'm not estonished.
Hehe... let's hack dirty now...
Very strong advise : purchase a slim but don't upgrade its fw for 3 months |
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lotharx
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| modrobert wrote: | When I finally accepted there really is 240MiB RAM available to "Other OS" using PS3 Linux (took some convincing, thanks btw), then a smiling Kaz along with the other fools at $ony decide to remove it. I sure hope they will continue to support "Other OS" on the "old hardware" at least, and not just run us over with the dreaded firmware 3.0 release.
lotharx,
A cry baby is way better than a corporate tool in my book. How these self-righteous people can claim sales which never occurred are equal to losses due to piracy is beyond me. That's a corporate cry baby talking if you ask me. |
I think the 256 MiB is still addressable in the 2.90 FW; it's even properly implemented in YDL 6.2. I may be wrong though as I stopped working with the PS3 2 revisions ago.
Most game studios who published games on the x360 have in fact lost considerable profits. It's simple economics. MS sales the device that plays the media, and the media is shared without a profitable license in place to the investing party; the investing party being the game studio and it's investors and publisher.
I'm sticking to my guns on this one. They can totally strip an otheros loader and you'll never see any development from free60 team or any disclosures on bug tracking sites. The explanation will be of course legacy Linux support.
The x360 has a global address space for everything and didn't check a control flag vector properly. The PS3 has an address space internally controlled from and out of bounds hardware restriction that is in no way dictated by any code but instead die design.
Any new attacker will have the same 4 NAND chips on main board and a BRD to try and get into privileged space from that have always been available. Under that same ideal though nobody has actually even attempted those attack vectors to date and instead chose to operate disorganized and head butt modern block cipher cryptography directly using preschool side channel attacks and even trying to decrypt it directly.
Even the phrack/RISE article was overly suggestive to this improbability. I may sound like a [slander goes here] but I'm willing to accept other logically sound theories too. |
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androvsky
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| I'm hearing rumblings that this was a relatively arbitrary decision by someone high up in Sony, but a lot of people there are still supportive of Linux on the PS3. I'm told there's a chance posting complaints on the Playstation Blog (U.S. and EU) might actually have a positive effect in this case. |
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Steril707
Joined: 29 Jul 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Munich/Bavaria/Germany/Europe/Earth
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Really stupid decision by Sony...
Off course the obvious route would be buying a non-slim PS3 then, but the question is, would a firmware update to that older machine kill off OtherOS functionality...
How do you guys here think..
I still haven't bought a PS3 yet, so it's hard for me to decide what to do now..
On one side, I'd like to dabble in some CELL coding, so I might get a Phat PS3, on the other side the slim is tempting me, and I might as well just use the CELL simu/emulator included in the SDK for trying out..
Wish they had just kept OtherOS... |
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lotharx
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Steril707 wrote: | Really stupid decision by Sony...
Off course the obvious route would be buying a non-slim PS3 then, but the question is, would a firmware update to that older machine kill off OtherOS functionality...
How do you guys here think..
I still haven't bought a PS3 yet, so it's hard for me to decide what to do now..
On one side, I'd like to dabble in some CELL coding, so I might get a Phat PS3, on the other side the slim is tempting me, and I might as well just use the CELL simu/emulator included in the SDK for trying out..
Wish they had just kept OtherOS... |
The firmware can completely kill Linux support by simply removing the boot loader function. I think they might make a update dynamic to hardware to keep legacy support.
The last 80GB hardware revision where they put the wifi on the same PCB, and this new one are the only ones I care to own. The new one has a 40nm CBE die and uses a fraction of the power and thermal energy. It'll have the same component layout of the 80GB they just compress the PCB putting chips closer. Without the wifi PCB extension they could bring the drives in further thus allowing the smaller case design. This case actually looks cheaper to manufacture though.
Personally I like playing around on bare metal(no underlying code such as a OS kernel) with the PS3. I never even got to do all the stuff I wanted to when I had mine. |
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cheriff
Regular
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Sydney.au
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Steril707 wrote: | | Off course the obvious route would be buying a non-slim PS3 then, but the question is, would a firmware update to that older machine kill off OtherOS functionality... |
Just my thoughts, but I doubt it.
Although new models no longer do SACD or play ps2 games, but successive firmware updates have not actively removed it from older ones which originally could.
So either FW updates already are released/downloaded on a per-model image, or there's just "TheOne" which detects some machine ID and enables/disables features based on that. Of course no telling if psThree will follow the same plan.
edit: typos
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